Soteriology101 Debunking Professor Brian Wagner Understanding that God only gives the Wicked Sinner One, or Two or Three Chances to be Saved. Job 33:29-30

I in no way am trying to persuade Brian Wagner of the truth. I am giving him the truth only with the hope faith and prayer God will bless it to his heart and he will come to  the knowledge of the truth.

Job 33 – 29-30 – Behold God does all theses things, twice, three times, with a man, to bring back my soul from the pit, that he may be lighted with the light of life.

To put it bluntly and clearly as I can and hopefully not misrepresenting Brian who I respect very much Brian believes GOD GIVES EVERY SINNER ONE TO THREE CHANCES TO BE SAVED.  Now just an ordinary understanding of the character of God brought me to the rejection of this man-made understanding of scripture.  No I don’t think Brian is purposely trying to deceive anyone, he has just locked on to this understanding and has not thought it through the same as he could find something that I believe wrong and shed light on it a none of us are perfect in our understanding of the knowledge of God’s truth.

You notice Brian talks of up to three chances the sinner gets to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.  This is POSSIBILITY SALVATION ULTIMATELY DEPENDENT ON MAN.  SO YES WE ARE STILL DISCUSSING NON-CALVINISM. THAT CHRIST ONLY MADE SALVATION POSSIBILITY.  CURIOUS THOUGH THAT BRIAN BELIEVES THAT GOD WILL NOT VIOLATE YOUR FREE WILL, AND THAT SALVATION IS ULTIMATELY OF MAN EVEN IF CHRIST MADE 99% OF IT POSSIBLE THE WICKED SINNER HAS TO WITH HIS FREE WILL ENERGIZE AND EFFECT THIS SALVATION BY REPENTING OF THEIR SINS TOWARD A HOLY GOD AND HAVING FAITH IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.  If he the wicked sinner does this he will be saved and IN CHRIST which he cannot get out of according to Brian Wagner.  My question to Brian is this, did the sinner lose his free will once he got saved?  Did God violate his will so that he will never walk away from his salvation?  The Holy Angels walked away from their estate?  Adam and Eve who were created upright without any sinful desires whatsoever and their heart and will were predominately toward God fell away?  So what happens to a sinners will if God does not violate according to you because for it to be free love as you say it cannot be a puppet on a string so even in heaven with the sinners free will like Lucifer and the other Holy angels could not man stop loving God in sinful wicked rebellion if his will is really free?  Really interested to hear a response to that but it seems you are no longer responding to me.

So chance, possibility salvation, Christ makes salvation possible and man holds the trump card is what Brian believes in. God giving man one, two or three chances.  I intend to prove this wrong along with proving chance is a farce itself.

So let’s start with Job 33:29-30. As I said before just a casual reading of God’s word brought me to the conclusion that Brian Wagner’s understanding of these two verses were wrong, that being God gives the wicked sinner one, maybe two, maybe three chances to be saved. I will deal directly with the two verses but want to give a few proof texts of God’s tender mercies and loving kindness and willingness to be saved.

Exodus 15: 11-13 – Who is like you, O Lord, among the gods? Who is like you majestic in holiness, awesome in glorious deeds, going wonders?

12. You stretched out your right hand, the earth swallowed them.

13.You have led in your steadfast love of the people whom you have redeemed and guided them by your strength to your holy abode.

Notice the steadfast love of the Lord for His people and God declares he is the one who REDEEMED AND GUIDED THEM BY HIS STRENGTH TO HIS HOLY ABODE.

Exodus 33:5-7 – The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord, A God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness,  keeping steadfast love and faithfulness, 7. keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and fourth generation.

Psalms 69:16 – Answer me, O Lord, for your steadfast love is good, ACCORDING TO OUR ABUNDANT (MULTITUDE) MERCY TURN TO ME.

God’s mercy is abundant, there is a multitude of it, it comes from the infinite God, so God’s mercy is indefinite and infinite itself. Why would the God of heaven who is slow to anger, long suffering only offer (according to Brian’s understanding of offer) is saving mercy maybe once, maybe twice or maybe three times?

Now I will use one last verse in the NT as Brian would understand (not as I would) to refute his understanding of the verses of Job 33:29-30

Once again I stress the following understanding is noncalvinistic which is false teaching and should be rejected, Brian’s understanding of this verse.

2 Peter 3:9 – The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward us, not willing any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Can we honestly say that the Lord whose mercy is abundant in multitude,  and he is infinite in mercy, slow in anger, great in compassion, is patient toward sinners (Brian’s understanding) and not willing that any should perish and come to repentance would only give wicked sinners maybe one, maybe two or three at the most chances to be saved.

2 Peter 3:15 says “the patience of the Lord is salvation”

I don’t count the Lord very patient, steadfast in love, abundant in mercy and patient if he only gives the sinner maybe one to three chances to be repent and be saved.

You see just a casual reading of God’s word makes Brain Wagner’s understanding suspect.  Much more could be added, but now we turn to the verse itself and see what others (Brian believes he needs no one and but most definitely does)

Let’s remind ourselves of the verse Professor Wagner holds so dogmatic too. 

Job 33 – 29-30 – Behold God does all theses things, twice, three times, with a man, to bring back my soul from the pit, that he may be lighted with the light of life.

I begin with the Popular Commentary of the Bible OT Job same passage as Brian Wagner used and let’s compare what these two men have said.

“Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man

My words, “notice immediately where it is said one, two or three times, here in the popular commentary it is called OFTENTIMES AND MANY VERSES TRANSLATE IT THAT WAY BECAUSE IT IS NOT THREE CHANCES BUT THREE MODES OR METHODS GOD USES TO BRING THE WICKED SINNER TO REPENTANCE AND FAITH IN CHRIST.

Popular Commentary – “dealing with him repeatedly and in such a manner, in order to impress His warnings upon the mind of man.

30. To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living -instead of being overshadowed with the darkness of death.

Benson Commentary

Job 33:29-30. All these things worketh God — All these ways and methods does God take to awaken, convince, and save sinners; oftentimes with man — One way with one man, and another with another; or, using these several methods with the same man, trying by various means, one after another, to lead him to repentance, and prepare him for deliverance. To bring back his soul from the pit — That he may save men from being for ever miserable, and make them for ever happy. “Lord, what is man, that thou shouldest thus visit him? This should engage us to comply with God’s designs, to work with him for our own good, and not to counterwork him. And this will render those that perish inexcusable, that so much was done to save them and they would not be healed.” So Mr. Henry. Excellent words! But utterly irreconcilable with the doctrine of absolute, unconditional predestination.

Barnes Notes on the Bible

Barnes’ Notes on the Bible

Lo, all these things worketh God – That is, he takes all these methods to warn people, and to reclaim them from their evil ways.

Oftentimes – Hebrew as in the margin, twice, thrice. This may be taken either as it is by our translators, to denote an indefinite number, meaning that God takes frequent occasion to warn people, and repeats the admonition when they disregard it, or more probably Elihu refers here to the particular methods which he had specified, and which were three in number. First, warnings in the visions of the night, Job 33:14-17. Second, afflictions, Job 33:19-22. Third, the messenger which God sent to make the sufferer acquainted with the design of the affliction, and to assure him that he might return to God, Job 33:23-26. So the Septuagint understands it, which rendered it, ὁδοὺς τρεῖς hodous treis – three ways, referring to the three methods which Elihu had specified.

Matthew Poole’s Commentary

All these ways and methods doth God use to awaken, and convince, and save sinners.

Oftentimes with man; either severally, one way with one, and another way with another; or with the same man, trying several means one after another to bring him to repentance, and prepare him for deliverance.

Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man. This is a summary or recapitulation of what goes before, from Job 33:15; God is an operating Being, he is always at work in a providential way: “my father worketh hitherto”, John 5:17; sometimes on the minds of men in dreams and visions; and sometimes by affliction; and sometimes by his prophets, messengers and ministers of the word; he works with and by these, and all according to the internal workings and actings of his mind, his eternal purposes and decrees, which are hereby brought about: and these he works “oftentimes”, or, as in the original, “twice” (w); therefore when once is not sufficient, he repeats it in dreams and visions; when men are not admonished by one, he comes to them in another: and afflictions, when one does not bring men to repentance, or answer a good purpose, he sends another; and continues the ministry of the word, in which he waits to be gracious, till all his people are brought to repentance, and all his ends answered by it: and all this he works “with man”, his darling object, the special care of his providence; and for whom his great concern is in redemption and salvation. He works with men distributively considered, with various men, in the several ways before expressed; and with men personally and individually; to one and the same man he has often appeared in dreams and visions, and on the same person has laid his afflicting hand again and again; and to the same individual has given line upon line, and precept upon precept. And because this is certain and to be depended upon as truth, and is worthy of notice and consideration, as well as is very wonderful and astonishing, that God should thus be mindful of man, and work with him and for him, “lo”, or “behold”, is prefixed unto it: the ends for which all this is done follow.

Lo, all these things worketh God {x} oftentimes with man,

29, 30. Elihu sums up his doctrine regarding the gracious purpose and effect of God’s methods of speaking unto man.

Verse 29.Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes (literally, twice and thrice) with man. Elihu, from this point to the end of the chapter, speaks in his own person. God, he says, thus works with man, through visions or through chastisements oftentimes – not in the latter case, taking vengeance on them for their sins, but graciously leading them on to a better mind and a higher spiritual condition. This is part of God’s ordinary moral government, and Job has no need to suppose himself exceptionally dealt with. Elihu has reason on his side in all this, and his words may have given Job some comfort. But they did not exactly fit Job’s ease. Elihu, unless supernaturally enlightened, could not possibly penetrate into the special circumstances of Job’s trial. He could only try to bring his case under general laws, of which it was not an illustration; and so, though well-meant and probably of some service, his argument was no complete answer to Job’s difficulties.

I will deal with Brian’s understanding of “chance” at a later date and disprove that that sinners have chances to be saved that fall under what Brian believes as “possibility salvation” or that Christ is not a real Savior who came to save his people from their sins but only makes salvation possible with the sinner taking opportunity of the one to three chances he may or may not get and with his free will repent and believe in Christ.

If the Holy Spirit convinces Brian of the truth of this, I would ask that he publically recant and repent on Soteriology101 of this false misunderstanding as I know he has espoused it at least two times on that site.

God Bless Brian and all who read this, if I am wrong, more than willing to receive correction.

 

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